desh | Why I don't drink, version #387629871

Why I don't drink, version #387629871

Articulated this in IM just now better than I have anywhere in awhile, so I decided to post here. Comments/criticisms welcome, if you're so inclined.

gutwoman: can i ask a question, and you dont have to give an answer if you dont have one

desh: sure

gutwoman: do you have specific reasons for not drinking alcohol/being uncomfortable around it? and do you drink at all

desh: I'll answer, but hang on a bit

gutwoman: k

desh: So there are a few reasons, and which one is the most important changes often.

desh: Plus, there are probably some I haven't thought of yet.

gutwoman: ok..

desh: One resaon is that I have an addictive personality. My love for gambling is evidence of that. Avoiding something addicting is probably a good risk management decision on my part.

gutwoman: yeah

desh: Another reason is that I rather like who I am. I don't feel the need to try anything mood-altering. Even minorly: I even avoid caffeinated drinks most of the time.

gutwoman: although i kinda find that substance addiction is somewhat separate just based on my own experience

desh: it might be

desh: that might not be a problem for me at all, in reality.

desh: but I think I'd rather not know.

desh: Another reason is kind of a negative one, and more addresses "why don't you get drunk" than "why don't you drink at all". But I don't have any of the reasons to get drunk that most people do. I don't have anything I want to escape. I don't enjoy the sorts of parties that people get really drunk at. I don't like bars.

gutwoman: well i dont think most people would enjoy those parties as much if it wasn't for the alcohol...

desh: And I guess the last reason is that I like my friends more when they're sober. I can't stand drunk people, for the most part. But even when someone's had one or two drinks, fine, I might not be able to notice, and usually it doesn't bother me much. But it also means that they're less likely to want to do the things that I usually enjoy doing at get-togethers, like playing board games and card games.

desh: And no, I don't drink at all, except for religious reasons, and only then if there's no grape juice around, and even then I only take a sip.

gutwoman: interesting

desh: A lot of my reasons are probably silly, especially for a 25 year old. Like, my freshman year, my friend went from also not drinking and also hating drunks, in two months, to asking me if I'm a recovering alcoholic or something for never going out and having fun.

desh: I hate when people change so dramatically like that, because it's rarely good. That incident probably cemented my decision to never drink in college.

EDIT: It's kind of fun to compare this to the same discussion when I had it three years ago.

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I've been having this exact conversation recently, except I'm the one on the other side: I drink one or two drinks per event and see myself getting drunk at least once in the (far-off) future. This conversation has really been dominating the past week of my life (It's with Bernie).

One change I've had since the start of college is that I honestly don't mind when my friends drink responsibly. When I tell you that two drinks per event is fine and moderate and normal and healthy and doesn't bother me (and if it does bother me then it's my problem and not yours), I actually mean it now. I never used to.

Slightly less so with the drunk-getting. I know intellectually that doing it occasionally (in a controlled environment and without going overboard) is also fine and normal and not unhealthy, but it still does bother me. This is something I have to deal with.

I think all of those answers fit me as well, except I'm not sure that I have an addictive personality (well, if it comes to buying/reading manga, then maybe...). There is another reason for me, though: I have yet to find an alcoholic drink that I actually like the taste of after the first few sips. :)

Part of why this is on my mind is that two weekends ago, for the first time in my life, I took a sip of wine for religious purposes and didn't hate it. It really threw me for about five minutes. I made sure I didn't finish the 3 ounces or so that I was poured, because of the whole fear-of-addictive-personality thing.

I think it was White Zinfindel, by the way.

I've had White Zinfindel, plus a whole lot of other wines. Wine is actually one of those drinks that I can't stand at all (along with beer...I've never actually had beer I don't think, but the smell makes me feel sick, so). It's something about the burning sensation at the end. I don't like burning. :P

Back when my family actually celebrated Passover, I was the only one in my family who'd drink Pepsi during Passover, instead of the Manishevitz. Even my younger brother would drink a few sips of the wine (all he was allowed). :)

No grey goose if you don't get loose.

I don't even know what that means. You're so much more hip than I am. :(

FYI, grey goose is a brand of vodka. So, onto your reasons. Your addictive personality? Gambling? I know you like to play cards with other people, but you LOVE TO PLAY CARD GAMES WITH OTHER PEOPLE, you always have, and I suspect you always will. It's sort of a touchpoint for a lot of different interests in your life. If you were to, say, love to play roulette, slot machines, or bet on dog racing I think you could make more of a convincing case for your addiction argument. But for me it doesnt wash.

Hmm, interesting. So if you're right, why is this something that worries me?

And "getting loose" applies to dancing, I think.

I don't think you'll get addicted to drinking from a glass of wine at dinner or a drink at a poker table or something. I should be the poster boy for addictive personality disorder, especially with my father's drug history, and I enjoy those things. Really, I can quit any time I want...

But yeah, the whole drinking-in-college-to-get-smashed thing is really annoying. I can't tell if I just don't see the appeal or what. To me it seems like people are trying to fit in and pretending to have fun than actually enjoying themselves. It was especially bad my freshman year, because everybody was like "We're real college kids now! Let's all drink all the time!!" while I think a lot of people calmed down after that.

So "no vodka unless you dance"? Isn't that backwards? Shouldn't it be "no dancing unless you've had some vodka first"? I hate pop music.

And I'm glad things have calmed down a bit. Though really, at a school the size of yours, you'll find plenty of mellow freshmen and plenty of drink-all-the-time juniors. It's all a matter of your crowd.

You hate pop music, eh? I seem to recall that you like the Beatles, who were the epitomy of pop music. Didn't they essentially invent it?

I still like pop music circa 1967. Not as much anymore. Though I guess it depends on how you define "pop music". I'm like defining it as "any music written in the past 5 years that they play at the parties I don't like going to". Which I guess begs the question.

I thought you hated me when I was sober?

--Jeff

That too! It's one of those "p and not p" things.

But even though I hate you, I still miss you! Get yer ass to Philly sometime!

So...you don't like bars, and you don't like your friends when they're drunk. Can you see now maybe why you're not the best person to invite to shindigs with drinking involved? sorry if this is insulting to you, but just try to see it from the perspective of someone who drinks and likes to drink, and occasionally likes to get drunk, and doesn't like to be judged.

I'd rather see my friends sober than drunk, but I'd (usually) rather see my friends drunk than not at all.

And when do I ever act like that? I'm just sharing my thoughts here, and the personal actions and decisions that result from them. I haven't even addressed my actions in the sense of relating to other people in situations like that. Seriously, have I ever met up with you at a bar or party, and rolled my eyes when you get another drink? Or anything like that?

And when have I ever said anything judgmental? (Okay, in the past four years.) Seriously, can you give me one example? I'm not judging anyone! I wish you would stop being so defensive, stop reading into what I'm saying, and start treating me based on how I act, not based on how you expect someone who doesn't drink to act.

I don't mean to offend anyone, but I always feel like you are judging me when you are there and we are drinking.
While you may not actually be doing it, it always feels like you are. Interpert that however you like.

Well, I'm not. So next time you feel that way, if it's caused by something I'm saying or doing, please point it out to me. And if it's not, then please try to realize that it's just in your head and not how I actually feel.

I had a long and thought out argument as to why Dov was right--or at least why i feel similarly--and then it just crumbled under the weight of its own stupendous awesomeness. So here goes:

When people drink, they affect the chemical processes of their bodies in a number of interesting ways. Taken together, and for the purposes of this post, let us group those chemical interactions together as "getting stupid." When we drink we get dumber, not smarter. When you don't drink you don't get any dumber, or any smarter. But from where we are sitting, you are getting smarter. And whenever anyone gets that much smarter than anyone else in that short a period of time, I think it can't be helped that we think that you're judging us--the calm cool observer watching his friends descend into blithering loss-of-fine-motor-coordination enjoyment. And then posting about it later.

I dont know. I mean, it's always felt that way to some extent--there will always be some tension when there is ONE PERSON WHO ISN'T DOING SOMETHING EVERYONE ELSE IS DOING--but it never bothers me. Or thought any less of you for it.

Thank you.

I can't say that I have ever felt "judged" in your presence. You just always seem really REALLY uncomfortable, and that usually makes me uncomfortable. I simultaneously try and figure out how to make you have fun and not care because its not my job. Then my brian explodes.

Interesting. I've always had the problem of not looking like I'm enjoying myself even when I am. So yes, stop caring, it's not your job! I'm probably having more fun than you'd guess. And besides, we wouldn't want Brian to explode again.

I wanted to add my 2 cents, since I've seen Desh at a number of parties. Perhaps in college he may have been a bit uncomfortable, but at the couple of parties I threw since then, I don't remember feeling judged by him. I just remember him politely declining any alcohol. And when I had a small New Year's gathering one year, I just made sure that there was sparkling cider on hand, and all was well.

However, he does get a little uncomfortable when people try to convince him to have some alcohol. But who doesn't find that kind of pressure off-putting?

Thanks for the defense. Though for the record, I don't know of anyone in these comments who's tried to pressure me into having alcohol recently. (Well, maybe in a conversation like this one, but not in an actual drinking setting.)

"Another reason is kind of a negative one, and more addresses "why don't you get drunk" than "why don't you drink at all". But I don't have any of the reasons to get drunk that most people do. I don't have anything I want to escape. I don't enjoy the sorts of parties that people get really drunk at. I don't like bars."

I like bars, but I don't like super noisy, super crowded bars, and I don't like parties where everyone is there just to get liquored up, and doesn't really even care who else is there.

I drink with friends. I find it is a good way to let loose, and just have fun.

"And I guess the last reason is that I like my friends more when they're sober. I can't stand drunk people, for the most part. But even when someone's had one or two drinks, fine, I might not be able to notice, and usually it doesn't bother me much. But it also means that they're less likely to want to do the things that I usually enjoy doing at get-togethers, like playing board games and card games."

Clearly you aren't hanging out with the right people. One of my favorite things to do when drinking is to play card games / board games. Apples to Apples is one of the best games to play while drinking. Poker is a good one also. Some of my favorite drinking moments were playing poker at AEPi, or playing Asshole with some of the Delta Delta Delta girls.

I think you are making too much of a generalization of people who drink. While I do agree with you that some people are annoying/obnoxious/whatever when drunk (like me I have been told), some people are not.

Also, I agree with judah with the not buying the addictive personality.

And I changed my mind, anyone who drinks alcohol becomes an instant asshole

dude, me. That is me.

"I like bars, but I don't like super noisy, super crowded bars, and I don't like parties where everyone is there just to get liquored up, and doesn't really even care who else is there."

I don't like either of those special cases either. But I also not a huge fan of bars in general. But they're fine for particular occasions, especially if they're not smokey.

Clearly you aren't hanging out with the right people. One of my favorite things to do when drinking is to play card games / board games. Apples to Apples is one of the best games to play while drinking. Poker is a good one also. Some of my favorite drinking moments were playing poker at AEPi, or playing Asshole with some of the Delta Delta Delta girls.

Maybe I'm hanging out with the wrong people, sure. But let's run down that list: I'm rather sick of Apples to Apples these days in any context, I like the intellectual exercise of poker more when the people I'm playing against are at their best, and I like asshole/Dalmuti a lot more when it's played on its own merits rather than as a drinking game or as an order-around-the-peon game.

Aren't I allowed to just say that, if it were up to me, I prefer most of my friends mostly unaltered most of the time?

You can say

"if it were up to me, I prefer most of my friends mostly unaltered most of the time",

or you can say,

"And when have I ever said anything judgmental? (Okay, in the past four years.) Seriously, can you give me one example? I'm not judging anyone! I wish you would stop being so defensive, stop reading into what I'm saying, and start treating me based on how I act, not based on how you expect someone who doesn't drink to act."

but to say both seems contradictory, because even if you never verbally express your judgement, it's not far from the surface, eh? ... or so it seems to me. Your reasons for not wanting to drink are in large part based on your dislike of other people, drunk, which makes it hard to assert that you're not judging.

Almost everyone of our age and social background thinks drinking is fun; most people can drink not infrequently without developing a problem. And that doesn't mean they only ever have one or two, either. As for disliking drunk people and not enjoying drinking, do you really think you've had enough experience to know that? I'm not saying you have to take up the habit; do what you want, but realize there are social implications inherent to your choices and attitudes.

I enjoy my friends more when they're not drunk, but I'm still not judging them when they are. Same thing goes if they're in a bad mood, or if they, I don't know, just had a root canal and talk really weird. Dislike doesn't imply judgment. Seriously. I'll say it again: "When I tell you that two drinks per event is fine and moderate and normal and healthy and doesn't bother me (and if it does bother me then it's my problem and not yours), I actually mean it." And so on.

I have no standing to tell anyone not to drink (unless they're endangering their well being, which is something I rarely encounter). I know this. And in fact, I wouldn't want to, because I know that they're likely drinking because they enjoy it, and what they do should depend more on what they like than what I like.

I see why this looks like a contradiction, but please see that it's not.

And if someone's drinking more than I want them to, I either remove myself from the situation or I don't, depending on how I'm feeling. But unless they're endangering their health or otherwise doing something stupid, I won't say anything, because again, this is about me, not them.

Though " As for disliking drunk people and not enjoying drinking, do you really think you've had enough experience to know that?" Yes. I've been around enough drunk people to feel comfortable making the generalizations about them that I've made so far (subject to the usual caveats about generalizations, such as applying them to individual situations at your own risk). And I don't need to try getting drunk to know that I don't want to get drunk, for all the reasons outlined in my original post.

"I like my friends more when they're sober. I can't stand drunk people, for the most part."

'Can't stand' is pretty unequivocal. For the record, the one-two drink vs the ominous 'more' distinction also has a judgmental tone. Two is fun, four is more fun! For us.

so, dropping acid is out of the question

A pretty straight-laced friend IMed me a couple months ago to tell me that she had just dropped acid. I was very confused until I figured out that she's a Chemistry grad student and it was just an accident with a beaker...

hahaha

sheesh desh. you're silly. the only argument that i think is a good one is that you like who you are. that's awesome. but you'd still be who you are. you always like how you feel?

i know it's a cliche, but you only live once. what if being drunk (once) is not so bad, and is just an experience you've never had?

That's the only argument that may work on me one day. Reluctance to try new experiences is a failing of mine (and the fact that you're not the same way is something I've always admired about you). So if I ever get past that, then maybe it'll be time to try drinking.

Maybe.

Though yeah, I almost always like how I feel. The times I don't are just often enough to keep me real and human. I'm damn lucky.

I love how, with fewer words than most of the people who posted, Graich managed to put Desh in his place and make him possibly change his position.

I miss you Graich.

awwww... I miss YOU!! (and you, desh)

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Why I don't drink, version #387629871

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