desh | laptops

laptops

Researching 12-inch laptops. Which do you think looks best?

Note: I'm not looking for a Mac/PC holy war. I'm looking at value for the money, both in terms of features listed here and in terms of other things you may know about these computers. I'm also looking for key features you think I might have forgotten to include. Stuff like that.

	Apple 12.1" iBook G4	Dell Inspiron 710m	Dell Latitude D410	Dell Latitude X1
Default weight	4.9 lbs.	4.1 lbs	3.8 lbs.	2.9 lbs!
Screen	12.1" conventional	12.1" widescreen	12.1" conventional	12.1" widescreen
Processor	1.33 GHz G4	1.70 GHz PM 735	1.73 GHz PM 740	1.10 GHz ULV PM 733
HD	40 GB	40 GB	40 GB	30 GB
RAM	1 GB	1 GB	1 GB	768 MB
CD	DVD / CDRW	DVD / CDRW	CD-ROM (external!)	CD-ROM (external!)
Keyboard	full size	not quite full size	no idea	looks full size, I think
Bluetooth	yes	no	yes	yes
base cost	$1099	$999	$1179	$1284
cost w/ 3 yr warranty	$1349	$1239	$1179	$1284
cost w/ warranty I'd want	$1349	$1159	$1179	$1284

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

If the only the Dell Inspiron 710m had bluetooth... can it be added as an option?

I didn't see it, but I'd be shocked if it's not available at all. Worst case, I'm probably not using the PC card slot for anything else...

Then of the options here, that's the one I'd pick for features vs. cost.

You could add USB-stick Bluetootch module

I haven't used a PC consistently in a long time, but I think you should go with a mac, if for no other reason than that they are pretty much immune to viruses, which have become huge problems for most people I know that use PCs (they kind of killed the computer I had before getting my iBook). My computer crashes rarely and still works fine after having had it for about three and a half years. I've heard really mixed reviews of Dells, but my experience with Macs has only been good.

Unrelated to this, can you tell me anything about the philosophy department at UPenn? Do you know anyone there that studied Phil? Any information at all would be quite helpful!!

Sorry, I don't know anything about the department personally.

Though I just skimmed facebook, and it seems that one or two of my friends actually were Philosophy majors without me knowing it. I also knew a couple PPE majors (Philosophy, Politics, and Economics all in ome; I think it's a Penn thing) who I guess would know at least a bit about the department. I can put you in touch with one Philosophy major if you'd like, if it's okay with her. (And if she's not already reading this...)

If you're interested in going a bit higher end, you might look at the Thinkpad X41 and similar. The thinkpads are built much more solidly than Dells, though they cost more. Penn has one for $2071 with the 3 year warrenty; Specs are (from ccx website):

3.3 lbs. (1.5kg) with battery installed; 5.1 lbs. (2.3kg) when attached to UltraBase X4 with optical drive installed
Pentium-M 778 processor @ 1.6GHz
512MB DDR SDRAM PC2-4200 DDR2 SDRAM
12.1-inch LCD display; XGA resolution (1024x768 pixels)
Intel Integrated Media Accelerator 900
60GB, 4200rpm hard disk drive with Active Disk Protection
DVD-ROM/CD-RW combo drive module (in included UltraBase)
Gigabit Ethernet
Built-in 802.11b/g wireless
Bluetooth
Built-in 56K V.92 modem
Includes 8-cell battery and AC power adapter
2 USB 2.0; infrared; dock/port replicator; external display (VGA); AC adapter; RJ-11; RJ-45; audio: headphone/line-out, external microphone
Windows XP Professional with Service Pack 2 (Microsoft Office sold separately.)
Up to 5.7 hours of battery life
Fingerprint reader security system
3-Year IBM international limited warranty with Next Business Day, On Site Service (one year warranty on included battery)

Wow, that's crazy. I looked at IBM/Lenovo, but ruled them out right away because of price. I don't think I could bring myself to spend that much money on a computer in this day and age, but it does look nice, doesn't it? (Except for that RAM.)

My Thinkpad last year made me very happy. My Inspiron right now makes me very happy. Small laptops in general make me very happy. That is all.

I would agree with you, but the place I works for orders all lenovo/ibm, and we LOVED thinkpads. We thought they were the greatest things ever. But the lenovo ones we have gotten, have been of lesser quality, and their support kind of blows now (their support used to be "Oh it's broken? Send it to us and we will fix it" now it is "Did you turn it on? Did you shake it over your head?"). Anyway...yea...

I would not go with any of Dell's low-end laptops. They are cheap for a reason. They tend to use cheap parts.

So really, that just leaves the power book. I personally like the iBooks more (I have a beefy desktop, don't need that much power in a laptop) but I would wait for the intel version. Thats all!

I'm generally sketched by friends' experiences with Dells; Apples seem pretty solid, although I have a couple of friends with recurrant problems that Apple is not good about fixing. I assume you would not be looking at the iBook if you were considering running Linux. I'd be uneasy buying a PPC machine now, since Apple killed the line, but if you're running fairly mainstream software you probably don't need to be so paranoid. The weights on the Dells are pretty sweet; any idea how they pulled that off?

Actually, I would want to run Linux if I got a PC. With a Mac, I'd consider it, but it wouldn't be so important. I just miss a CLI enough that I want one of my two main computers (I'm not getting rid of the desktop) to have one. Why is Linux an issue with the iBook, and do you know of any other potential Linux issues with any of these other ones?

And as for the weight: the two lighter ones are weighed without the CD drive. Maybe the Inspiron is too, or maybe it has a crappy battery; I'm not sure. (Maybe they actually just engineered it better.) I wouldn't be too impressed.

And I'd consider a MacBook, but they're just so absurdly priced right now. They're going to have to support PPC for at least another two years, I bet.

Yup.

It's going to take that long to get Mac OS/Intel versions of everything, in my estimation. Also, my basic rule with technology: NEVER EVER under any circumstances EVER buy the first generation of significantly new technology. It always has stupid bugs that get ironed out in the second generation. I'm waiting at least a year to get an IntelMac, unless my laptop (which is for the record a 2001 12" iBook, 500mhz PPC G3, 640MB RAM) stops working, which so far looks unlikely.

Also, just cuz it's a Mac doesn't mean you shouldn't take any security precautions.

For what they have/cost the Inspiron seemed like the best deal, unless you care about bluetooth or having a Mac.

First, I don't believe there is such a thing as a 12" with a full-size keyboard. We had 12" macs in middle school (high school too actually) and the keys are definitely smaller than desktop keyboards. You get used to it, but it still makes you more prone to mistakes.
I agree with the "not-the-mac-for-linux" idea. Laptops are usually a pain (I'd look up pages of people who use linux on the Dells and see what the caveats are before buying), and having a non-x86 processor will make things more difficult on many levels of software.
I personally would cut out the two Latitudes. I think it's ridiculous to have a CD-Rom (not DVD or RW) drive at all, much less an external drive, and the most you're saving is 1.2lbs. I wouldn't take you as being the kind of person that 4lbs really bothers.
In favor of the Mac, I grudgingly admit that OS X is pretty cool and stable (and certainly better than XP). It's also notable that Dell was quite close to the worst in the Consumer Reports reliability survey for laptops and Apple was near if not the best. I have a Dell and I've had a few problems and I treat my computer quite nicely, hardly ever taking it places.

Well, this would be my secondary computer, and I'm getting the small one specifically so I can take it places. But I might splurge on the extra $80 or so, to upgrade the warranty from "if it breaks we fix it" to "seriously, we mean it, even if you throw it in a swimming pool we'll help you out". So the robustness issues aren't really a problem for me unless it's seriously bad.

But yes, any research you do, I'd love to hear.

As for robustness issues, on my computer: The hard drive died pretty horribly. On any other OS salvage would have been pretty hopeless. I'm pretty sure the fan is dead and the built-in speakers don't work unless you press on the headphone/speaker jack, although that was probably my fault (it still shouldn't break that easy just because I forgot to unplug the speakers before picking it up once). In Dell's defense, they did replace the hard drive quite promptly (with a bigger one, and they sent two shipments of the same thing).

You can press "F9" on the Mac and it spreads out all the windows in an aesthetically-pleasing fashion.

Yeah. I really hope someone writes that for Windows.

Actually....http://www.petefreitag.com/item/124.cfm

Topdesk Software makes a version for windows also that I use at home. It's awesome. $10 bucks to actually buy it. It will probably be the second piece of software that I'll buy in the past four years.

Now, I'm not actually advocating buying the iBook, but do yourself a favor and DON'T buy yourself a Dell. Buy any other type of PC laptop, but not Dell. Dell does not score any points with me on parts, reliability, or customer service. The iBooks are good, yes, but since you're not a Mac person and you're as stubborn as a mule that is both deaf and dead, you'll find it hard to get into. Just go IBM/Lenovo and suck it up.

--Jeff

I probably should've mentioned that I can get a $250 discount from work on a Dell. I bet I can convince them to extend the discount to an Apple, but probably not to another PC. So I'm not convinced that Dells (with a good warranty) are so bad that it overcomes the price difference.

And if you want to cover the $1000 difference between a Dell and a Lenovo, I'll happily oblige.

Dude. Besides advice, I ain't giving you shit. Of course, feel free to act in the same way most Americans do - with a complete disregard for both quality and the most basic laws of utility. Sure, a more expensive computer will actually save you time and money in the long run (it will break down less, frustrate you less, have a higher resale value, etc.), but you first have to get used to the concept of investment (paying more now to get benefits later) - you know, the same concept behind retirement plans? Eh, whatever. I'll kill you well before then anyway.

--Jeff

Dude, have you seen my room?

I know for a fact that you haven't seen mine. You should totally skip this whole "buying a laptop" thing and move down to DC. For the price of an iBook you can pay one month's rent!

--Jeff

ugh, I can't even count all the people I know who've had problems with dells. and the ones we have at school are shit (though they are desktops, and they start out as shit because the cheap computers that companies sell to schools always suck...).

also, don't get a laptop that doesn't have a dvd drive.

I've been very happy with my 12" powerbook. I don't know if the slower processor on an ibook would bother me. but if you're not married to the idea of a mac I don't think it matters so much. get an hp or a thinkpad or something.

Between the ones up there, I'd honestly go with the iBook. Buying a dell laptop is asking for trouble. The quality of parts, and the build quality are absolute shit. They feel flimsy, they are flimsy, and they don't stand up to any real wear and tear. Not to mention the keyboards on them are craptastic.

If you're going to buy a PC, buy an IBM. They are the only company that has good support and good build quality.

The model I would check out is the Z60t. It's got a 14" widescreen display, so it's not much bigger than the average 12" notebook, just a little wider.

If you're going to buy it soon, click here because they have a really freaking good sale on a very nice z60t.

Otherwise, they range from $799 up to $2300 depending on options.

It's a nice computer, but it weighs 4.9 lbs without the optical drive, making it a full 1 to 1.5 lbs and 2 inches bigger than what I want. It's just not what I'm looking for. (If I was okay with those dimensions, I could get a Dell for several hundred dollars cheaper. The price difference would then be so much that I could almost get two Dells, and cannibalize one for parts when the other one breaks.)

I can get you the discount for IBM/Lenovo though penn (working for penn is AWESOME!). For that matter, I could get you the discount on an iBook/Powerbook also.

I can get the Penn discount for Lenovo too. And as for the Mac discount, let's talk in IM.

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One more thing

Re: One more thing